Third Shooter Witnesses

This page will take a close look at all of the witnesses whose interviews include information that there may have been three or more suspects involved in the Columbine High School Shooting.

The witness interviews analyzed on this page come from a list of 101 witnesses purported to have seen a third suspect compiled in the early days. However, many witnesses on this list should not have been added for various reasons. For example, some of those witnesses didn't see any suspects and were added based on hearsay repeated by someone else. In some cases, the witness identified someone other than Harris or Klebold simply because they heard that individual was a shooter - not because they think they saw them.

These individuals have been removed from that list and a new list has been created that includes only witnesses whose interviews meet the following criteria:

• They described seeing three or more different suspects, either at once, or separately
• They described suspects that don't match Harris or Klebold's descriptions
• They named a suspect other than Harris or Klebold

In order to analyze the testimony that potentially supports the presence of a third suspect, it's important to first eliminate witnesses who do not belong on the list.

Original witness list

This is the original witness list

Witnesses removed from the original list

The following witnesses have been removed from the list of witnesses whose interviews support the possibility of a third (or more) suspect.

Witnesses who did not see any suspects:

1. Adam Thompson [pp.2213-2215]

From Thompson's interview:

"He did not observe any of the individuals involved in the attack, or their victims." (Source: p.2215)

2. Alex Babiniec [pp.1752-1756]

From Babiniec's interview:

"He said he does not think he saw any of the trench coat students or associates in school the day of the shooting." (Source: p.1754)

3. Brandi Wiseman [pp.4750-4761]

From Wiseman's interview:

"Brandi said that she looked back toward the West windows and saw an individual, outside, wearing a black trench coat, who appeared to be running South toward the Southwest corner of the cafeteria.

Brandi said that the glimpse she caught of this individual was very brief, and that she did not see his face or any weapon. Brandi said that other than the black trench coat, she did not notice any other clothing or features on this individual." (Source: p.4758)

Wiseman was added to this list because she was hiding in the cafeteria's kitchen and reported hearing gunshots and explosions in the cafeteria and library. The assumption is that Wiseman heard the explosions and gunshots in both places at the same time, therefore there were other shooters, but that's not what her testimony actually says. That's also not evidence of a third shooter.

Wiseman specifically describes hearing people hitting the floor in the library, bookshelves being knocked over, gunshots, and screaming in the library first - then explains that after the commotion in the library, she heard gunshots in the cafeteria. Specifically, she reported hearing the gunmen reloading their weapons, shooting at kitchen appliances, and yelling at each other. (Source: p.4753)

Wiseman's account matches the known activities of Harris & Klebold.

Witnesses removed because of hearsay:

1. Amy Evans [pp.2960-2965]

From Evans' interview:

"EVANS stated she briefly saw a male wearing a black trench coat running around outside of the cafeteria. She could not describe the person and said she did not see a weapon." (source: p.2962)

Evans was added to the original list because when investigators interviewed Melissa Couris (10k, p.22205), she told them "Evans said there was a third shooter and it was [redacted]." It's clear that if Evans made this statement to Couris, it was not because she saw [redacted]. Why would she say this? Everyone was talking about additional shooters, and its clear Evans was repeating what she heard from others.

Note: Amy Evans was on Harris' "shit list."

2. Amy Terry [pp.2205-2209]

From Terry's interview:

"Terry never saw any suspects, nor did she see any weapons." (Source: 2208)

Terry was added to this list because her friend, Elisha Encinas, told Terry she saw multiple shooters in the cafeteria wearing trench coats and masks, and when running upstairs, she saw an additional 4 people in trench coats coming through the glass doors at the West end of the main hallway. This was not witnessed by Terry.

Witnesses who identified Harris or Klebold:

1. Alicia Maes [pp.3613-3619]

Alicia initially identified a suspect as [redacted], but revealed she didn't know [redacted] or Klebold before the shooting. If she didn't know [redacted] prior to the shooting, this means she got the name [redacted] from someone else and did not genuinely identify "redacted." She was never shown a lineup when she named "redacted." This means Maes was repeating hearsay. When she saw Klebold's photo on television, she identified Klebold as the suspect she saw.

Another witness, Rachel Nelson, told investigators Maes saw four people with trench coats and guns, but this is hearsay and that's not in Maes' interview.

From Maes' interview:

"She said she saw him reach into his coat and then saw him throw an object into the parking lot. She said she heard an explosion and watched the subject walk toward the soccer field." (Source: p.3614, p.3615)

Note: Other witnesses identified the suspect who threw this bomb into the parking lot as Klebold.

"Alicia stated that when she first observed the male in the black trench coat, she thought it was a person known to her as [redacted]. She advised that now, after seeing pictures of Dylan Klebold, she believes that this person may have been him, not [redacted]." (Source: p.3615)

"She said at this point she looked to the area at the top of the exterior stairs on the west side of the cafeteria and saw a suspect whom she thought was student [redacted]. She clarified that this could have been Dylan Klebold, as she did not know either one of them prior to the shooting." (Source: p.3618)

2. Anthony Sammauro

Sammauro saw one suspect and identified him as Klebold.

From Sammauro's interview:

"...looked out West window and identified Dylan Klebold standing on top of hill by stairs and throwing an object into the West parking lot; saw same looking suspect walking toward West cafeteria door from bottom of stairs moments later; saw no other suspect' saw no guns." (Source: p.4298)

"Identified Dylan Klebold outside the cafeteria when shooting began." (Source: 4300)

"As he was going out the doors, he looked back West and saw who he thought was the same suspect he saw throw the object, Dylan, walking down the bottom of the stairs like he was going to go in the West cafeteria doors." (Source: 4301)

Sammauro allegedly said "two suspects came in the front door and one came in the side door." However, this quote from Sammauro is incorrectly attributed to page 5071, which is the end of Alicia Olejniczak's interview. Like most of these additional quotes that come from the 10k report, this is likely not something Sammauro told investigators, but rather, hearsay from an entirely different witness. If anyone knows the correct page number for this alleged quote, please let us know!

3. Bryan Frye [pp.805-816]

From 30 feet away, Frye saw a shooter matching Dylan Klebold's description, but identified him as Eric Harris.

After hearing a rumor that [redacted] turned himself in for participating in the shooting, and looking up [redacted]'s photo in the yearbook, Frye became convinced [redacted] was the shooter he saw. However, Fry's identification of [redacted] wasn't a genuine identification - it was influenced by the rumor he heard.

Fry is one of a handful of people who mention seeing acne on a suspect's face, but this group of witnesses only mention acne and name Perry in their second and third interviews, after they heard rumors about Perry's involvement, which suggests they're not stating what they actually saw.

From Frye's interview:

"He stated that he saw a person standing by this entrance who was wearing a long black trench coat, black pants, black shirt, and black boots. He said this person was not wearing a hat or a mask and he was sure that this person was Eric Harris. He stated that this person was holding a weapon which he later realized was the TEC-9 which he saw several days later in the newspapers and on television." (Source: p.806, p.807)

"He advised that while at school, he heard a rumor that [redacted] had turned himself in as having been involved in the shootings at Columbine. He went on to say that when he received his yearbook, he began looking at the pictures of both Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. He said he then looked at the picture of [redacted] and became convinced in his mind that the person he saw outside the student entrance holding and then shooting the TEC-9 was [redacted], not Eric Harris."

"He advised that the shooter took very long strides and was close enough to him - he estimates about fifteen feet, that he saw the acne on his face." (Source: p.813, p.814)

"SA Traver then provided photos that had been taken from the cafeteria video camera. After looking at photo #52, from Packet A. Frye stated that the image of Dylan Klebold did look like the person he saw shooting people outside of the school on 4/20/99. He stated that he remembers the firearm being in the person's left hand, and the black ball cap being on backwards, as they are represented in the picture. He stated that on a scale of 1 to 10 he would say that he would give it a seven, that he was sure that this [Klebold] was the person he saw." (Source: p.815, p.816)

Revised list of testimony that could support a third suspect

Note that not every witness in this list is a definite match for support of a third suspect. Each witness testimony needs to be examined individually because some of them are more inconclusive than others. For example, some of the suspect descriptions match Harris or Klebold mostly, some testimonies are a clear case of transference and false memory, while other testimonies simply don't make sense. Some, however, strongly support the case for a third suspect.

1. Ann Marie Hochhalter [pp.215-216]

From Hochhalter's interview:

"...she observed two gunmen. The first gunman she described as a white male, black hair, brown eyes, black hat and boots, black cargo pants, black shirt, black trench coat, carrying a black vinyl duffel bag, round in shape and about two and a half feet long, with a black gun.

Number two gunman was a white male, with a shotgun, carrying a duffel bag, wearing all black to include a black trench coat."

"Hochhalter said at about this time they began to run to the cafeteria when gunman two shot her." (Source: p.216)

2. Ashley Egeland [pp.5247-5268]

From Egeland's interview:

"At this time Ashley stated that she observed two male subjects coming around the corner of the library hall into the North hall. Ashley advised that both subjects were armed. According to Ashley as soon as both subjects saw her and "Lacey" they started shooting at them. Ashkey said that they both ran back down the gym hall and into the gym." (Source: p.5248)

"Ashley identified the shooters as Eric Harris and [redacted]. According to Ashley, [redacted] was dressed in a white shirt with a black trench coat over it. She said that Morris was armed with a hand gun while Harris was armed with a shotgun. Ashley said that she was not sure about [redacted]'s identity until her sister Heather showed her a Columbine yearbook and she saw his picture in the book. Ashley is sure the two shooters she observed were Eric Harris and [redacted]." (Source: p.5249)

3. Bijen Monte [pp.1014-1026]

From Monte's interview:

"MONTE stated she was certain it was [redacted] standing over the two kids (Lance Kirklin and Daniel Rohrbough). She stated on a scale of 1-10, 1 being uncertain and 10 being positive she was 8+1/2-9 it was he."

"She stated [redacted] had a gun hanging from his neck on some type of strap. The gun was all black and approximately 15-18 inches long. She stated it looked like a machine gun, and there was no duct tape on it. She stated that it was the only gun she saw him with and it was in his right hand."

"The following is a physical description of the man she saw with a gun:

He had on a black trench coat that extended to between his knees and his ankles.

He had on a black baseball hat in the backward position.

His face was long and his neck was long.

He had a narrow chin.

His teeth were crooked and he had an obvious overbite.

His complexion had lots of acne, there were indentations like pieces were cut out, and his face was white in color with some redness." (Source: p.1018, p.1019)

4. Brenton Hooker [pp.1464-1467]

From Hooker's interview:

"B. Hooker said he observed a tall kid with black trench coat and a baseball cap (on backwards) with curly hair and a half-mask on exit the same East doors."

"B. Hooker said he could not identify the shooter, but felt it might be an associate named [redacted]." (Source: (p.1465)

"Upon contacting Brenton, he stated that he made a mistake in his identification of [redacted]... Brenton stated that he, in fact, believes that the individual he saw was Dylan Klebold, at which time I showed him still photographs numbers 44, 47, 52, and 53, those photos were recovered from the videotape taken of the cafeteria on the incident date. Once Brenton was shown the photographs, he immediately identified Dylan Klebold as the shooter he saw at Columbine High School." (Source: p.1467)

We know that [redacted] is Robert Perry, because in the 10k report on page 16397, Perry's name has not been redacted from Hooker's interview.

From Hooker's 10k interview:

"When HOOKER reached the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive, he turned around and observed an individual he thought was ROBERT PERRY (ex-student of Columbine High School) standing outside the door just to the North of the main entrance shooting a pistol in his direction and at a group of students and ambulances parked at the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive. HOOKER saw dust kick up near the edge of Pierce Street from the gunshots and he contiued to run East on West Fair Drive for a short distance then he turned around and looked back at the school and could no longer see the individual."

"HOOKER described the individual he thought was PERRY as 6'8"-6'11" in height, very skinny, tight black pants, black trench coat (knee length), sunglasses, black mask covering mouth and nose. HOOKER advised he spoke with another student whom he identified as TERRY LAWSON who stated he had seen PERRY in the school commons are earlier that day on April 20, 1999." (Source: p.16397)

What's interesting is that on page 16398, the CBI officer made a note that it would have been difficult to positively identify anyone from where Hooker was when he saw the suspect. I've not come across any other instance where a note like this is made - not even in other interviews that identify Perry from a distance.

"On April 22, 1999, HOOKER returned to the school site with Agents GRIFFITH and MUNDINE and showed them exactly the position of the shooter and his location when he saw the shooter. This location was approximately 200 yards East of the shooter's location outside the door. From this position it would be difficult to positively identify anyone, especially while being shot at." (Source: p.16398)

5. Cara Sander [pp.1121-1124]

Sander saw two suspects, one matching Eric Harris' description and the other suspect description only matched Klebold's appearance in terms of height, weapon, and trench coat.

Sander looked through a yearbook to find the suspect she saw and picked out a photo of [redacted]. That was the first time she saw [redacted]'s photo and the first time she learned his name. (Source: p.1132)

The photo Sander found in the yearbook matched the description she gave to investigators. Sander picked [redacted]'s photo out of the 1998 Columbine yearbook in two locations - a regular student photo and she also found him in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo. Although the name has been redacted, it's believed that Sander identified Brian Sargent since he is in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo and matches Sander's description.

From Sander's interview:

"She described the gunman as a white male with a very full face, "pudgy, overweight." The gunman had dark hair, possibly 1 1/2" long. He had dark eyes and dark thick bushy eyebrows." (Source: p.1122, p.1123)

"Sander stated there was a white male standing a few feet from the gunman. She stated the white male had no facial hair, was wearing a white t-shirt, short sleeved, possibly with some red and black writing on the front." (Source: p.1123)

"...she saw the pictures of the two deceased suspects, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, on the TV. She stated neither of these two suspects were the gunman she observed at the top of the stairway holding the gun that she saw after she exited the cafeteria. Sander stated the suspect she saw had a fuller face with darker eyes, and thick dark eyebrows. Sander looked over numerous photos, and then pointed to a picture and said, "that looks like him." The person in the photo that Sander pointed at was [redacted]."

"[redacted]'s photo shows him to be a more heavy set individual with a round face, short dark hair, and eyebrows that are dark and could possibly be considered bushy." (Source: p.1124, p.1125)