Third Shooter Witnesses

This page will take a detailed look at all of the witnesses whose interviews include information that indicates there may have been three or more perpetrators involved in the Columbine High School Shooting.

The witness interviews analyzed on this page come from a list of 101+ witnesses purported to have seen, heard, or heard about a third suspect compiled in the early days right after the 11k report was released. However, this list was a "catch-all" of a list. Meaning, any witness who indicated anything at all about a third shooter - whether or not it was their direct experience - was added to this list.

Many witnesses on this list should not have been added for various reasons. For example, some of those witnesses didn't see any suspects and were added based on hearsay repeated by someone else. In some cases, the witness identified someone other than Harris or Klebold simply because they heard that individual was a shooter - not because they think they saw them. Some witnesses actually did identify Harris and/or Klebold, and only offered other names in their later testimonies after discussing the matter with others.

The aforementioned don't support an accurate assessment and have been removed from the original list. A new list has been created that includes only witnesses whose interviews meet the following criteria:

• First-hand accounts only
• They described seeing three or more different suspects, either at once, or separately
• They described suspects that don't match Harris or Klebold's descriptions
• They named a suspect other than Harris or Klebold on their own, without influence

Original witness list

This is the original witness list

Witnesses removed from the original list

The following witnesses have been removed from the original list:

Witnesses who did not see any suspects

1. Adam Thompson [pp.2213-2215]

From Thompson's interview:

"He did not observe any of the individuals involved in the attack, or their victims." (Source: p.2215)

2. Alex Babiniec [pp.1752-1756]

From Babiniec's interview:

"He said he does not think he saw any of the trench coat students or associates in school the day of the shooting." (Source: p.1754)

3. Daphne Bacca [pp.8894]

Daphne Bacca was an officer from the Littleton Police Department and was not a witness to the crime.

Bacca was added to this list simply because she reported the names of 4 possible suspects: Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Chris Morris, and Robert Perry. This doesn't qualify as suspect identification. It just means Bacca was reporting on the names of suspects provided by witnesses.

From Bacca's interview:

"It should also be noted that Daphne Bacca had listed four names of possible suspects. Those names included Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Chris Morris, and Robert Perry. It is unknown to this IO how Daphne Bacca had gleaned that information." (Source: p.8895)

4. Devon Adams [pp.10614-10618]

Adams wasn't on campus during the shooting and didn't identify any suspects. She told police she thought three specific people were directly involved. However, she named these three individuals based solely on her personal feelings toward and perception of the individuals. This doesn't qualify as suspect identification.

From Adams' interview:

"I asked Devon who else was involved directly in the Columbine incident, and she, without hesitation stated, [redacted], [redacted], and [redacted]. I asked why she thought that, ad Devon got quiet, and again looked down to the floor, then she stated that she just knew." (Source: p.10616)

When Devon was asked about why she felt [redacted] might be involved with the incident, she said [redacted] had in the past threaten [sic] her on the computer over a [sic] incident at Columbine. She said she did not have any proof he was involved other than he gets mad very easy and likes to kick in cars."

"When asked about [redacted], she said he like [sic] to beat up his girl friends and other people for no reason. She said her only reason for giving his name was that he scared her."

"When asked about [redacted], she said he was on the Columbine debate team with her last year. During one meeting he was mad at someone and was looking for a pipe to beat them up with. Devon said he was a very violet person. She said he quit school one semester before he was to graduate." (Source: p.10618)

5. Andrew Lagerborg [pp.1999-2000]

Lagerborg never saw any suspects; he only heard gunshots.

Lagerborg was added to this list because he reported running down the South hall and heard gunshots. Lagerborg then ran through a room to the North hallway when he heard a shooter down that hall.

From Lagerborg's interview:

"Lagerborg said he ran down the South hall but a gunman was at the other end of the hall and panicked people were running back at him so he redirected his flight through a [computer?] room to the North hallway. He heard a shooter down that hall as well. He never actually saw the shooters, only heard their [location?] based on the sound of the gunshots." (Source: p.2000)

We don't have a good enough visual of the school's halls to see how they are connected and to see where these shots may have come from and how this is suspect. If someone can show how these hallways would indicate a suspect other than Harris or Klebold, we'll move Lagerborg to the updated list.

Witnesses removed because of hearsay

1. Amy Evans [pp.2960-2965]

From Evans' interview:

"EVANS stated she briefly saw a male wearing a black trench coat running around outside of the cafeteria. She could not describe the person and said she did not see a weapon." (source: p.2962)

Evans was added to the original list because when investigators interviewed Melissa Couris (10k, p.22205), she told them "Evans said there was a third shooter and it was [redacted]." It's clear that if Evans made this statement to Couris, it was not because she saw [redacted]. Why would she say this? Everyone was talking about additional shooters, and its clear Evans was repeating what she heard from others.

Note: Amy Evans was on Harris' "shit list."

2. Amy Terry [pp.2205-2209]

From Terry's interview:

"Terry never saw any suspects, nor did she see any weapons." (Source: 2208)

Terry was added to this list because her friend, Elisha Encinas, told Terry she saw multiple shooters in the cafeteria wearing trench coats and masks, and when running upstairs, she saw an additional 4 people in trench coats coming through the glass doors at the West end of the main hallway. This was not witnessed by Terry.

3. Holly Pinkham [pp.1620]

Pinkham saw no suspects and personally heard no gunshots. Once she had been in Clement Park for a while, someone she was with began hearing gunshots. She, however, did not hear gunshots.

Pinkham was originally added to this list because she told investigators she thought there had to have been more than two shooters because her friend, Dan Goin, got his shoe shot off in the middle hall while someone was shooting in the cafeteria. This is not only hearsay, but someone having their shoe shot off doesn't indicate there was a third suspect.

Furthermore, Pinkham never claimed to hear gunshots in the cafeteria while her friend, Dan, had his shoe shot off in the hallway. Pinkham did not report hearing any gunshots and told investigators she "had not heard any bangs or booms."

There is no testimony for a "Dan Goin" or any "Dan" with a last name even remotely close to "Goin" in the 11k. There are (10) witnesses named "Dan," (20) witnesses named "Daniel," (5) witnesses named "Danielle," (1) witness named "Dannon," (2) witnesses named "Danny," and (1) witness named "Dante."

Pinkham's IO checked the Rapid Start system for a "Dan Goin" and found that lead #4462 listed him, but there was no lead to interview him. The IO created a lead sheet and submitted it to the Rapid Start system, but it appears he was never interviewed. It's unclear where the story of Goin getting his shoe shot off came from.

However, it should be noted that Goin was one of a few people who allegedly saw Robert Perry shooting. If Perry was involved in the shooting, it would be a major coincidence that Goin got his shoe shot off and was never interviewed. According to Lucas Milne's interview, he saw [redacted] - likely Perry - in the cafeteria in his trench coat at 11 a.m. and he says that Goin, Brandon Little, and Bijen Monte all saw [redacted] shooting at the school.

4. Jessica Rusch [pp.2142-2145]

Rusch saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description while barricaded in a science room. She could not identify the suspect. After describing the suspect to her boyfriend, he told her it was [redacted].

Rusch told investigators she could not identify the suspect she saw, but she spoke with her boyfriend, Patrick McDuffee, after the incident. After describing the suspect to McDuffee, he told Rusch it sounded like [redacted]. Rusch and McDuffee came to the conclusion that the suspect she saw was [redacted] "because McDuffee knew he was associated with the gang known as the Trench Coat Mafia." (Source: p.2144)

Rusch could not identify the suspect. Her boyfriend's belief that the suspect was [redacted] based on Rusch's description doesn't count as witness identification.

From Rusch's interview:

"She stated the individual was about 6'00" tall, skinny, and she described his manner of dress being in all black, telling me that the party had a black baseball cap on that was backwards. She said he had a black face mask, black jeans, and a black trench coat. Jessica said under the baseball cap, she could see the individual's hair and described it as being brown in color, curly, and about collar length."

"She stated she did not know the age of the individual. I asked Jessica if she could identify that person and tell me the individual's name. She told me she could not, but she had a conversation with her boyfriend, Patrick McDuffee, after the incident. She described the individual that she saw at the science room door and they came to the conclusion that it was [redacted] because McDuffee knew he was associated with the gang known as the Trench Coat Mafia." (Source: p.2144)

Witnesses whose identification wasn't genuine

1. Chris Therrien [pp.1202-1208]

Therrien originally could not identify the shooter he saw, but the description matched Dylan Klebold, specifically stating that the suspect had a "large nose."

Only after discussing the incident with Bijen Monte and Brian Frye did Therrien described seeing acne on the shooter's face. Therrien admits to being influenced into thinking he saw [redacted] (Robert Perry) based on what he was told by Monte and Frye.

A sudden description of acne also appears in Frye's follow-up interviews, after he discussed the incident with others. This is a classic example of false memory created by the influence of another witness. In Therrien's case, he admits he was influenced.

Therrien is one of a handful of people who mention seeing acne on a suspect's face, but this group of witnesses only mention acne and name Perry in their second and third interviews, after they heard rumors about Perry's involvement, which suggests they're not stating what they actually saw.

From Therrien's interview:

"Chris saw a tall (6'1") white male, black cap, large nose, shoulder length hair, black trench coat carrying a black 1 1/2 foot long gun, with a "bullet clip" on the underside of the gun." (Source: p.1203, p.1204)

"Chris advised me that he had seen a picture of the person he described to me as the shooter at CHS on the outside steps, North of the cafeteria on 4/20/99. He stated that the picture he saw was of [redacted], and he was "pretty sure" he was the shooter he saw that morning at CHS."

I asked Chris what events lead [sic] up to him looking at a picture of [redacted] and calling me on 5/20/99. He stated that on 5/18/99 he was talking with his friend Bijen Monte, who he was with during the CHS shooting. They were talking about the incident, and Chris advised Bijen that he gave the following description of the investigator that interviewed him. He described the shooter as a WM, 6', large nose, acne, shoulder length hair wearing a black cap, possibly a backwards baseball cap and dark trench coat. He then told Bijen he thinks it was Dylan Klebold, but was not sure.

(Note: Although Therrien says he described seeing acne on the shooter's face in his initial interview, he did not mention acne. This is a classic example of false memory. Monte's story influenced Therrien to believe he saw acne on the shooter's face. The false memory is so strong, he believes he saw the acne from the beginning, but he did not.)

Bijen said it was not Dylan Klebold she saw that morning outside the cafeteria. She then showed Chris a picture of [redacted] from the yearbook. Chris stated that the picture he saw of [redacted] "appeared" to be the person carrying a black 1 1/2 foot long gun at CHS on 4/20/99. Chris stated he also spoke with Brian Frye, who he was with on 4/20/99, and Brian identified [redacted] as a shooter on the outside of the CHS cafeteria." (Source: p.1207, p.1208)

Witnesses who identified only Harris and/or Klebold

1. Alicia Maes [pp.3613-3619]

Alicia initially identified a suspect as [redacted], but revealed she didn't know [redacted] or Klebold before the shooting. If she didn't know [redacted] prior to the shooting, this means she got the name [redacted] from someone else and did not genuinely identify "redacted." She was never shown a lineup when she named "redacted." This means Maes was repeating hearsay. When she saw Klebold's photo on television, she identified Klebold as the suspect she saw.

Another witness, Rachel Nelson, told investigators Maes saw four people with trench coats and guns, but this is hearsay and that's not in Maes' interview.

From Maes' interview:

"She said she saw him reach into his coat and then saw him throw an object into the parking lot. She said she heard an explosion and watched the subject walk toward the soccer field." (Source: p.3614, p.3615)

Note: Other witnesses identified the suspect who threw this bomb into the parking lot as Klebold.

"Alicia stated that when she first observed the male in the black trench coat, she thought it was a person known to her as [redacted]. She advised that now, after seeing pictures of Dylan Klebold, she believes that this person may have been him, not [redacted]." (Source: p.3615)

"She said at this point she looked to the area at the top of the exterior stairs on the west side of the cafeteria and saw a suspect whom she thought was student [redacted]. She clarified that this could have been Dylan Klebold, as she did not know either one of them prior to the shooting." (Source: p.3618)

2. Anthony Sammauro

Sammauro saw one suspect and identified him as Klebold.

From Sammauro's interview:

"...looked out West window and identified Dylan Klebold standing on top of hill by stairs and throwing an object into the West parking lot; saw same looking suspect walking toward West cafeteria door from bottom of stairs moments later; saw no other suspect' saw no guns." (Source: p.4298)

"Identified Dylan Klebold outside the cafeteria when shooting began." (Source: 4300)

"As he was going out the doors, he looked back West and saw who he thought was the same suspect he saw throw the object, Dylan, walking down the bottom of the stairs like he was going to go in the West cafeteria doors." (Source: 4301)

Sammauro allegedly said "two suspects came in the front door and one came in the side door." However, this quote from Sammauro is incorrectly attributed to page 5071, which is the end of Alicia Olejniczak's interview. Like most of these additional quotes that come from the 10k report, this is likely not something Sammauro told investigators, but rather, hearsay from an entirely different witness. If anyone knows the correct page number for this alleged quote, please let us know!

3. Bryan Frye [pp.805-816]

From 30 feet away, Frye saw a shooter matching Dylan Klebold's description, but identified him as Eric Harris.

After hearing a rumor that [redacted] turned himself in for participating in the shooting, and looking up [redacted]'s photo in the yearbook, Frye became convinced [redacted] was the shooter he saw. However, Fry's identification of [redacted] wasn't a genuine identification - it was influenced by the rumor he heard.

Fry is one of a handful of people who mention seeing acne on a suspect's face, but this group of witnesses only mention acne and name Perry in their second and third interviews, after they heard rumors about Perry's involvement, which suggests they're not stating what they actually saw.

From Frye's interview:

"He stated that he saw a person standing by this entrance who was wearing a long black trench coat, black pants, black shirt, and black boots. He said this person was not wearing a hat or a mask and he was sure that this person was Eric Harris. He stated that this person was holding a weapon which he later realized was the TEC-9 which he saw several days later in the newspapers and on television." (Source: p.806, p.807)

"He advised that while at school, he heard a rumor that [redacted] had turned himself in as having been involved in the shootings at Columbine. He went on to say that when he received his yearbook, he began looking at the pictures of both Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. He said he then looked at the picture of [redacted] and became convinced in his mind that the person he saw outside the student entrance holding and then shooting the TEC-9 was [redacted], not Eric Harris."

"He advised that the shooter took very long strides and was close enough to him - he estimates about fifteen feet, that he saw the acne on his face." (Source: p.813, p.814)

"SA Traver then provided photos that had been taken from the cafeteria video camera. After looking at photo #52, from Packet A. Frye stated that the image of Dylan Klebold did look like the person he saw shooting people outside of the school on 4/20/99. He stated that he remembers the firearm being in the person's left hand, and the black ball cap being on backwards, as they are represented in the picture. He stated that on a scale of 1 to 10 he would say that he would give it a seven, that he was sure that this [Klebold] was the person he saw." (Source: p.815, p.816)

4. Crystal Archuleta [pp.2363-2370]

Archuleta saw 1 suspect throwing a bomb whom she initially named as [redacted]. The police accidentally revealed that [redacted] was Robert Perry. Prior to the shooting, Archuleta didn't know Harris or Klebold by face or name. She identified Perry based on his 1997 yearbook photo and said she had seen him around school in his trench coat.

Archuleta only saw the suspect's profile for a second or two and described him as "tall, wearing a black trench coat, a black ball cap on backwards, and black warm-up type pants with black high top tennis shoes." (Source: p.2365)

She told investigators the suspect "had on a baseball cap that had a red letter on the front of it." When shown a photo of Dylan Klebold, Archuleta said she believed that is the suspect she saw. (Source: p.2370)

From Archuleta's interview:

"Crystal observed a male party wearing a trench coat, a black ball cap turned around backwards, very tall; that Crystal believed to be a student that she knew as a [redacted]. Crystal observed the party in the trench coat throw one pipe bomb on the hill above the cafeteria. She did not see the party carrying a gun. The party was alone and had no one with him as he then walked up the stairs and into the entrance door next to the library."

"When asked by det. Demmel how she knew it was [redacted] (Perry), she said that Perry was pigeon toe'd [sic] and that the person was walking that way and went up the stairs in a very distinct pigeon toe'd [sic] manner." (Source: p.2364)

"At this time I brought out photos #51 and 54 and had Crystal view them. Crystal looked at Dylan klebold and said that she believed that is the person she saw on the top of the hill. Crystal said that when she saw the male on the hill, he did have a baseball cap on, but in the pictures there is no baseball cap. I asked Crystal if it's a possibility that she saw Dylan and not [redacted] (Perry). She said yes, after looking at the pictures, she does believe that it was Dylan and not [redacted] (Perry)." (Source: p.2370)

5. Diwata Perez [pp.537-541]

Perez saw 2 suspects she identified as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Perez was added to this list because it's noted in the Jeffco Agency reports, p.9924, that she and Jessica Holliday could hear more gunshots "elsewhere" in the school while Harris and Klebold were in the library. However, in her interview, Perez never mentions hearing gunshots anywhere else but the library. In Holliday's interview, she says she heard bombs - not gunshots - elsewhere.

6. Evan Todd [p.8826; pp.161-179]

Todd saw 2 suspects and positively identified them as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Allegedly, Todd reported hearing bombs in other areas of the school while he was in the library with both Harris & Klebold. However, this statement is not in Todd's testimony.

Page 8826 is cited for Todd, but that page is part of Russ Boatright's interview from the Agency Reports section. The page in question is a transcript of an online interview conducted over AOL between a kid named Jason Rios (not a Columbine student) and someone presenting themselves to be a Columbine student named Jim Rossdale. There is no interview available to the public involving a "Jim Rossdale."

It's also unclear why this page was cited as evidence that Todd heard bombs coming from other areas of the school while he was in the library.

7. Jessica Holliday [pp.364-378]

Holliday saw 2 suspects and positively identified them as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. She was familiar with both shooters since Eric had dinner at her house two years prior to the shooting and Dylan was in her government economics class.

Holliday was originally added to this list because Holliday reported hearing gunshots "elsewhere" while the shooters were in the library. However, that's not what Holliday's testimony says.

Holliday told investigators she heard bombs - not gunshots - "going off somewhere else in the building." (Source: p.365) In another statement, Holliday was adamant that she heard bombs going off while the two suspects were in the library, but didn't specify where. This makes sense because both suspects set off bombs while they were in the library and both left to go down to the cafeteria where they fired their weapons and set off bombs. When hearing explosions somewhere else in the building, Holliday may have been under the impression that Harris & Klebold were still in the library.

Given the size of the library and the fact that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were exploding bombs all over the library, there's no reason to believe Holliday wasn't simply overwhelmed by the noise and unable to pinpoint where the explosions were coming from. She never specified where she thought the explosions were coming from.

Witnesses removed for other reasons

1. David Eagle [pp.1877-1886]

Eagle did not identify any suspects because he didn't see their faces. Eagle was removed from the list because the inability to identify a suspect doesn't, by itself, constitute support for a third shooter.

Peering through a classroom window, Eagle saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description. He didn't know Klebold or Harris from school and didn't recognize the suspect as Harris or Klebold based on photos broadcast by the media. However, Eagle acknowledged that he never saw the suspect's face due to smoke. If he never saw the suspect's face, he wouldn't recognize the photos of Harris & Klebold's faces.

From Eagle's interview:

"The guy with the gun had black hair looked like it was spiked, shaved on the sides. It also was blond on top (little part). Couldn't see his face because of the smoke. He was a white male, about 5'9", about 18 yrs old, no facial hair, (unsure didn't [??] because of smoke), clothing, he had a black shirt..." (Source: p.1878, p.1879)

"David described this person holding the gun as someone with black shaved hair with blonde streaks. The hair was longer on the top than it was on the bottom. He couldn't see any facial features because of the smoke and shadows. He has since seen pictures of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold on television. He did not know these students from school. David said that the person he saw did not look like the people he's seen on television.

David said that he saw the person with the gun from the chest up. He could see a black shirt; the sleeves stopping on the arms, like a tee shirt would fit. David said that there was another person standing next to the killer, but he couldn't see that person at all." (Source: 1881)

2. Frank DeAngelis [pp.5670-5682]

DeAngelis saw 1 suspect shooting a gun from far away and was unable to see the suspect well enough to confirm their sex or identity.

DeAngelis was originally added to this list because somewhere in another report, someone from law enforcement reported that DeAngelis identified one of the suspects currently in Jeffco custody. However, this was taken out of context.

DeAngelis did not identify the person in custody as the suspect he saw shooting at Columbine. He simply confirmed the identity of the person in custody so police knew who they had detained. In other words, police took a suspect into custody and then asked DeAngelis to identify him. This was likely Chris Morris.

From DeAngelis' interview:

"...he saw a figure of an individual down towards the far West end of the North hall. Frank DeAngelis states the individual was near the West exit/entrance outside. When asked if he could identify that individual, Frank DeAngelis responded in the negative. Frank DeAngelis stated he could not even state for certain the individual was a male but did believe the person was "tall and slender," possibly wearing a "white cap (referring to a ball cap) turned backwards." Frank DeAngelis also thought that individual was wearing a white t-shirt with a black vest. Frank DeAngelis reiterated he could not see the individual well enough to confirm the person's sex or identity."

"Frank DeAngelis stated it was his speculation the individual he could see at the far West entrance was the individual firing the weapon." (Source: p.5676, p.5677)

3. Gary Talocco

Talocco's interview was not included in the documents released to the public.

Talocco was originally added to this list because he allegedly told investigators that the school's roof repairman saw 3 people exit a vehicle with Harris and Klebold. The source of this claim is unknown to the group of researchers creating this encyclopedia.

The original list cites p.8876, but that page is part of Debra Granger's interview from the Agency Reports section and contains only a list of 12 police officers who did not know if the shots they fired contacted the suspects.

4. Jason Baer [pp.1757-1761]

Baer's initial testimony says that he did not see anything, but he heard a suspect say that he wanted to die. He was hiding in a science room the entire time.

Baer's second interview states that he saw a suspect in a black trench coat with a gun, but could not identify the suspect.

Neither version of his testimony supports the possibility of a third suspect.

Baer was originally added to this list because his testimony reads, "I heard more than two people yelling to each other saying "over here" & stuff." (Source: p.1759)

There's no reason to believe people saying "over here" were suspects; they could have been students yelling to other students to follow them out when they escaped from the library across the way. It's impossible to know, and it can't be assumed that these statements were made by suspects.

From Baer's interview:

"He saw a white male in a black trench coat with a gun. He could not tell if it was a rifle or a shotgun."

"Baer said because of the trench coat hiding the suspects' physical features he did not see any further identifying features. Baer did not get more than just a quick look at the suspect he saw. Once again as soon as he saw the weapon he did an about face and speedy retreat." (Source: p.1761)

5. John Curtis [pp.2785-2792]

Curtis was originally added to this list because he allegedly saw 3 "attackers." Curtis initially said there may have been 2-4 shooters. However, Curtis did not report seeing 3 suspects. He reported seeing only 2 suspects and was assuming there were 2-4 shooters.

Curtis never saw both suspects together and acknowledges that the two suspects he saw at different times may have been the same person.

When asked to clarify why Curtis thought there may have been more than two suspects, he stated it was because he "heard a lot of discharging of weapons and pipe bombs." (Source: p.2789)

From Curtis' interview:

"I asked him why he believed there might have been more than two suspects involved, and he stated that because he heard a lot of discharging of weapons and pipe bombs. I asked him if he ever saw the suspects together, whether it was two or more, and he stated that he never saw any of the suspects together during the incident." (Source: p.2789)

"Curtis indicated he thought there was possibly two to four shooters. The investigator asked Curtis if it was possible he was only seeing the same two people and he said yes. There was one at the entrance and one downstairs. He indicated it could be very possible they are talking about the same ones. When asked how many Curtis saw, he said two. One was at the West entrance and in the library. He saw the other one outside." (Source: p.2791)

6. Brandi Wiseman [pp.4750-4761]

From Wiseman's interview:

"Brandi said that she looked back toward the West windows and saw an individual, outside, wearing a black trench coat, who appeared to be running South toward the Southwest corner of the cafeteria.

Brandi said that the glimpse she caught of this individual was very brief, and that she did not see his face or any weapon. Brandi said that other than the black trench coat, she did not notice any other clothing or features on this individual." (Source: p.4758)

Wiseman was added to this list because she was hiding in the cafeteria's kitchen and reported hearing gunshots and explosions in the cafeteria and library. The assumption is that Wiseman heard the explosions and gunshots in both places at the same time, therefore there were other shooters, but that's not what her testimony actually says. That's also not evidence of a third shooter.

Wiseman specifically describes hearing people hitting the floor in the library, bookshelves being knocked over, gunshots, and screaming in the library first - then explains that after the commotion in the library, she heard gunshots in the cafeteria. Specifically, she reported hearing the gunmen reloading their weapons, shooting at kitchen appliances, and yelling at each other. (Source: p.4753)

Wiseman's account matches the known activities of Harris & Klebold.

7. Josh Ortwein [No interview available]

No interview with Josh Ortwein has been made available to the public.

Ortwein was added to this list because in Laura Hornbaker's testimony, she told investigators she heard from her friends that Josh Ortwine witnessed the shooting and he was telling everyone that he saw [redacted] shooting a gun." (Source: p.1939)

This is hearsay and does not qualify as witness identification.

8. Kacey Ruegsegger [pp.118-130]

Ruegsegger was removed from the list because the inability to identify a suspect doesn't, by itself, constitute support for a third shooter.

Ruegsegger was shot in the shoulder by Dylan Klebold with the double barrel shotgun from about 6 feet away. She only saw one suspect - Klebold - and only saw his legs and shotgun.

From Ruegsegger's interview:

"She could only see the gunman's legs and thought he may have been wearing black pants. She was unable to recall his footwear. The gunman leaned down and shot her from an estimated distance of five or six feet. She still was only able to see the legs of the shooter. She never saw the second gunman and could not distinguish any accents or identifiable features, including race, from the voices."

"Greg advised IO that his daughter told him she recalled the gun used to shoot her as having two barrels." (Source: p.120)

Revised list of testimony that could support a third suspect

Note that not every witness in this list is a definite match for support of a third suspect. Each witness testimony needs to be examined individually because some of them are more inconclusive than others. For example, some of the suspect descriptions mostly match Harris or Klebold, some testimonies include potential transference or false memory. Some, however, strongly support the case for a third suspect.

There are witnesses on this list who reported second-hand information, but in this case, it was a direct report of what rescued students were saying as opposed to someone repeating rumors they heard.

1. Ann Marie Hochhalter [pp.215-216]

Hochhalter was at the bottom of the stairs by the cafeteria when she was reportedly shot by Harris. Was it really Harris? She described seeing two suspects wearing trench coats at a time when Harris had already dropped his coat at the top of the stairs. Another witness, Katelyn Place, described watching a student drag Hochhalter "away from Robert [Perry]."

There are several witnesses who describe seeing two tall suspects, both wearing black trench coats and wearing all black, down by the cafeteria where Hochhalter was shot.

From Hochhalter's interview:

"...she observed two gunmen. The first gunman she described as a white male, black hair, brown eyes, black hat and boots, black cargo pants, black shirt, black trench coat, carrying a black vinyl duffel bag, round in shape and about two and a half feet long, with a black gun.

Number two gunman was a white male, with a shotgun, carrying a duffel bag, wearing all black to include a black trench coat."

"Hochhalter said at about this time they began to run to the cafeteria when gunman two shot her." (Source: p.216)

2. Katelyn Place [11k, pp.4081-4088; El Paso 21-285]

Place originally identified the 1 gunman she saw as [redacted] (Robert Perry). Place admitted that she might have identified Perry simply because she associated him with a trench coat. However, Place describes watching another student drag Hochhalter "away from Robert [Perry]." Place wasn't the only witness to identify Perry in that area wearing a black trench coat and holding a gun.

From Place's interview:

"Place stated she had met Dylan Klebold less than five times and knew who he was. Place stated she was much more familiar with Perry due to the fact that he had been in a class with her, in which she saw him almost every day. Place advised it was possible that she identified Perry as being the gunman due to the fact that she associated the trench coat to a familiar person. Place stated she would not be able to testify in court that Perry was the individual standing outside the cafeteria holding the gun and shooting in the direction of Ann Marie Hochhalter." (Source: p.4087)

3. Ashley Egeland [pp.5247-5268]

From Egeland's interview:

"At this time Ashley stated that she observed two male subjects coming around the corner of the library hall into the North hall. Ashley advised that both subjects were armed. According to Ashley as soon as both subjects saw her and "Lacey" they started shooting at them. Ashkey said that they both ran back down the gym hall and into the gym." (Source: p.5248)

"Ashley identified the shooters as Eric Harris and [redacted]. According to Ashley, [redacted] was dressed in a white shirt with a black trench coat over it. She said that Morris was armed with a hand gun while Harris was armed with a shotgun. Ashley said that she was not sure about [redacted]'s identity until her sister Heather showed her a Columbine yearbook and she saw his picture in the book. Ashley is sure the two shooters she observed were Eric Harris and [redacted]." (Source: p.5249)

4. Bijen Monte [pp.1014-1026]

From Monte's interview:

"MONTE stated she was certain it was [redacted] standing over the two kids (Lance Kirklin and Daniel Rohrbough). She stated on a scale of 1-10, 1 being uncertain and 10 being positive she was 8+1/2-9 it was he."

"She stated [redacted] had a gun hanging from his neck on some type of strap. The gun was all black and approximately 15-18 inches long. She stated it looked like a machine gun, and there was no duct tape on it. She stated that it was the only gun she saw him with and it was in his right hand."

"The following is a physical description of the man she saw with a gun:

He had on a black trench coat that extended to between his knees and his ankles.

He had on a black baseball hat in the backward position.

His face was long and his neck was long.

He had a narrow chin.

His teeth were crooked and he had an obvious overbite.

His complexion had lots of acne, there were indentations like pieces were cut out, and his face was white in color with some redness." (Source: p.1018, p.1019)

5. Brenton Hooker [pp.1464-1467]

From Hooker's interview:

"B. Hooker said he observed a tall kid with black trench coat and a baseball cap (on backwards) with curly hair and a half-mask on exit the same East doors."

"B. Hooker said he could not identify the shooter, but felt it might be an associate named [redacted]." (Source: (p.1465)

"Upon contacting Brenton, he stated that he made a mistake in his identification of [redacted]... Brenton stated that he, in fact, believes that the individual he saw was Dylan Klebold, at which time I showed him still photographs numbers 44, 47, 52, and 53, those photos were recovered from the videotape taken of the cafeteria on the incident date. Once Brenton was shown the photographs, he immediately identified Dylan Klebold as the shooter he saw at Columbine High School." (Source: p.1467)

We know that [redacted] is Robert Perry, because in the 10k report on page 16397, Perry's name has not been redacted from Hooker's interview.

From Hooker's 10k interview:

"When HOOKER reached the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive, he turned around and observed an individual he thought was ROBERT PERRY (ex-student of Columbine High School) standing outside the door just to the North of the main entrance shooting a pistol in his direction and at a group of students and ambulances parked at the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive. HOOKER saw dust kick up near the edge of Pierce Street from the gunshots and he continued to run East on West Fair Drive for a short distance then he turned around and looked back at the school and could no longer see the individual."

"HOOKER described the individual he thought was PERRY as 6'8"-6'11" in height, very skinny, tight black pants, black trench coat (knee length), sunglasses, black mask covering mouth and nose. HOOKER advised he spoke with another student whom he identified as TERRY LAWSON who stated he had seen PERRY in the school commons are earlier that day on April 20, 1999." (Source: p.16397)

What's interesting is that on page 16398, the CBI officer made a note that it would have been difficult to positively identify anyone from where Hooker was when he saw the suspect. I've not come across any other instance where a note like this is made - not even in other interviews that identify Perry from a distance.

"On April 22, 1999, HOOKER returned to the school site with Agents GRIFFITH and MUNDINE and showed them exactly the position of the shooter and his location when he saw the shooter. This location was approximately 200 yards East of the shooter's location outside the door. From this position it would be difficult to positively identify anyone, especially while being shot at." (Source: p.16398)

6. Cara Sander [pp.1121-1124]

Sander saw two suspects, one matching Eric Harris' description and the other suspect description only matched Klebold's appearance in terms of height, weapon, and trench coat.

Sander looked through a yearbook to find the suspect she saw and picked out a photo of [redacted]. That was the first time she saw [redacted]'s photo and the first time she learned his name. (Source: p.1132)

The photo Sander found in the yearbook matched the description she gave to investigators. Sander picked [redacted]'s photo out of the 1998 Columbine yearbook in two locations - a regular student photo and she also found him in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo. Although the name has been redacted, it's believed that Sander identified Brian Sargent since he is in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo and matches Sander's description.

From Sander's interview:

"She described the gunman as a white male with a very full face, "pudgy, overweight." The gunman had dark hair, possibly 1 1/2" long. He had dark eyes and dark thick bushy eyebrows." (Source: p.1122, p.1123)

"Sander stated there was a white male standing a few feet from the gunman. She stated the white male had no facial hair, was wearing a white t-shirt, short sleeved, possibly with some red and black writing on the front." (Source: p.1123)

"...she saw the pictures of the two deceased suspects, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, on the TV. She stated neither of these two suspects were the gunman she observed at the top of the stairway holding the gun that she saw after she exited the cafeteria. Sander stated the suspect she saw had a fuller face with darker eyes, and thick dark eyebrows. Sander looked over numerous photos, and then pointed to a picture and said, "that looks like him." The person in the photo that Sander pointed at was [redacted]."

"[redacted]'s photo shows him to be a more heavy set individual with a round face, short dark hair, and eyebrows that are dark and could possibly be considered bushy." (Source: p.1124, p.1125)

7. Chris Wisher [pp.1261]

Wisher only saw two suspects. The first suspect matched Klebold's description, but Wisher could not identify him. Wisher told investigators he didn't recognize the person, but thought it might be [redacted], a Trench Coat Mafia member, who was about the same height and build.

Wisher did not actually identify [redacted], he told investigators it was his "first impression based on association that he identified [redacted]." That does not qualify as suspect identification. Wisher's testimony further confirms this, "Wisher stated he only got a partial look at both gunmen and could not identify either person by name. Wisher stated he was only able to give a clothing and physical description of the individuals.

When shown photographs of Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, Wisher positively identified both as the individuals he saw and confirmed that the photo of Eric Harris was the individual he observed throwing bombs on the roof of the school. (Source: p.1266)

Did Wisher see three suspects at once? It's unlikely. Wisher only mentions two suspects in his initial testimony - one suspect in a black trench coat and the other in a white t-shirt. Wisher only adds in a third suspect in his follow-up interview where he says he saw two suspects in black trench coats and one suspect in a white t-shirt.

Since early testimony is generally more reliable, it's unlikely that Wisher saw three suspects. However, like many others, Wisher reported seeing the person in the white t-shirt throwing bombs wearing blue jeans. Although he identified this suspect as Harris, it's curious that he, along with many others, saw this person wearing jeans. Wisher was somewhere between 50-100 yards away when he witnessed this.

From Wisher's interview:

Original testimony: "About 50 yards away, outside on the West side of the cafeteria, he saw a tall white male, dressed all in black, with a black trench coat, and what he thinks was a black hat and dark sunglasses. At time time, he did not recognize this person, but thought it might be [redacted], a member of the Trench Coat Mafia who is about the same height and build." (Source: p.1263)

"Wisher also saw a white male dressed in a white short-sleeved tee shirt and blue jeans, kneeling with his back to him... Wisher saw this perosn throw an object one-handed on top of the cafeteria/library roof. It appeared metallic with sunlight glinting off of it, and one to two seconds after landing it exploded with a loud bang, a flash of fire, and a pall of smoke." (Source: p.1264)

Revised testimony: "Me and my friends were about 100 yards away from the people. There were 3 of them, 2 wearing trench coats & 1 wearing a white shirt... We got up & saw the kid in the white throw what looked like grenades on the roof." (Source: p.1262)

8. Courtney Haulman [pp.839-844]

Haulman saw three males in black trench coats standing near the West entrance to the school at the top of the stairs where the shooting began.

From Haulman's interview:

"There was three guys, the guy I remember most was the main guy. He's over 6 feet tall and has long curly dark-colored hair. He was wearing a black trench coat. His name is [redacted]." (Source: p.840)

"Haulman stated that she observed three males in black trench coats standing next to the stairs which lead [sic] to the West entrance of the school. Haulman described gunman number one as a white male, approximately 17 yoa, 6'3", medium build, long curly dark hair, wearing a black trench coat, dark colored pants, carrying a long gun (unknown color).

Haulman described gunman number two as a white male, 16 to 17 yoa, shorter than gunman number one, medium build, no hat, no mask, dark clothing, to include black trench coat, with grenade type things hanging on his shirt, dark in color.

Haulman described perceived suspect number three as a white male with a black trench coat, white shirt, carrying something odd in shape (unable to describe). Haulman stated that she recognized gunman one and two as individuals she had seen in school before." (Source: p.841)

"Haulman stated that while standing outside on the Southwest corner of the cafeteria, peeking around the corner, she observed gunman number one and two standing in close proximity of each other and that the third gunman was standing above them on the stairs." (Source: p.842)

"...she looked around the corner and observed what she thought was two persons with weapons and a third person with them possibly talking to them or yelling at them and that she could not tell if the third party had a weapon... Haulman was shown photos #46, 48, 51, and 54 and she was unable to identify anyone in the photos and did not know if these were the same persons she had seen doing the shooting." (Source: p.844)

9. Dick Strange [pp.1193-1195]

Strange was a mechanic working for the Foothills Park and Recreation District and was with a client at Clement Park when the incident began. While he reported seeing "four to five" people in trench coats, he saw only one suspect with a weapon that matched Harris' description.

Strange reported seeing "four to five" individuals in black trench coats standing near the Columbine High School gym at 11:45 a.m. Strange says he then saw the individuals walk toward the cafeteria side of the school and he drove along a bike path toward the school and lost sight of the people in trench coats.

When he got to a small structure near the baseball field, he said he saw an individual dressed in a trench coat by the Southwest entrance who then dropped his coat, pulled out two guns, and started firing at students around the soccer field.

The suspect described by Strange matches Harris, since Harris dropped his coat in front of the Southwest entrance of the school and then began firing at kids on the soccer field. However, his timing might be a little bit off.

From Strange's interview:

"It was there at approximately 11:45 am that STRANGE first observed four to five individuals, all dressed in black trench coats, standing alongside CHS in the vicinity of the gymnasium... STRANGE then observed these individuals walk Southwest along the high school, heading from the gym towards the cafeteria side of the school."

"As the two men reached the small structure located near the outfield fence of the Southernmost CHS baseball field, STRANGE began hearing what he thought was possibly firecrackers going off. He then observed one individual, dressed in a trench coat, standing in front of the Southwest entrance of CHS, the one with the big glass doors. STRANGE saw this person drop his coat, pull out two guns and begin firing at students socializing in and around the soccer and football field areas. STRANGE also heard explosions going off at this time." (Source: p.1194)

10. Erik Sunde [pp.4572-4578]

Sunde reported seeing two gunmen with sawed off shotguns outside the cafeteria and one gunman seemed to be inside - one gunman was wearing a ski mask and he couldn't see the other one's face. He ran upstairs and saw a third person in a black trench coat holding his arms in a position that looked like he was holding a gun. However, Sunde didn't see a gun.

From Sunde's interview:

"Erik stated that as he was near the stairs he looked back over his shoulder quickly and saw two guys in black trench coats near the West cafeteria window. He stated one looked very close, almost possibly inside the cafeteria. He stated they both had sawed off shotguns and had on the long, black coats. He stated they were randomly shooting the area. Erik stated that one of the two had a black ski mask on. Erik stated that he could not see the other's face."

"Erik continued up the stairs and as he turned East at the top of the stairs he looked back over his shoulder and looked quickly to the West toward the library entrance door. He saw a guy wearing a long, black coat and a raggedy black hat standing near the library doors. Erik stated that this guy had his arms held in a position which made him think that this guy had a gun in his hand. He stated the arm and hand were up and stretched out. Erik stated he did not see a gun. Erik stated he heard shots being fired which they sounded like they coming [sic] from the second floor." (Source: p.4575)

11. Erin Walton [pp.2241-2248]

Walton was in the science room Dave Sanders was brought into after he was shot. Through the window she saw two shooters mostly matching Harris and Klebold's descriptions, but only saw them from the back and got a view of the sides of their faces. She could not identify either suspect.

However, Walton has been kept on this list because she described the suspect as older and going bald. Although, it should be noted that Harris had a receding hairline that made him look like he was going bald.

Eric Harris had a visibly receding hairline from the side.

From Walton's interview:

"We saw two guys standing in the doorway, backs to us. Heard them fire 2-3 shots don't know where (past towards the science teacher's room) then they left. One of the guys was tall, long black hair, wearing all black. The other one had short brown hair (like he was going bald). He looked like he was in his late 30s." (Source: p.2242)

"Walton saw their backs and sides of their face. Both people were standing together. They fired three to four shots at the science teacher's door."

"Walton gave the following description:

Suspect #1: Taller, long black hair, wearing all black. Had a black hat, with the bill turned backwards. He was wearing a black t-shirt with writing on the back. She does not remember the words. The letters were red, white, and blue in color. Walton did not see this person's face.

Per Walton, he is the only person who did any shooting. She said she saw a shotgun. His left head [hand] was extended. At one point, the person held the gun up, that is [sic] Walton saw the gun.

"Suspect #2: Walton saw the side of his face. He was wearing a white t-shirt, real short blond hair. Walton stated he was just standing there with the other person. Walton did not see a gun." (Source: p.2244)

12. Jennifer Smull [pp.2182-2192]

Smull saw 2 suspects matching Klebold and Harris' descriptions. When shown a photo lineup, Smull immediately identified Dylan Klebold, but could not identify the other suspect as Eric Harris.

Like Erin Walton, Smull described a suspect that matches Harris' description, except she said he looked like he was in his 30s and going bald. It's possible this was someone other than Harris.

From Smull's interview:

"I saw a senior standing outside our classroom door. I knew he was the shooter. Then I saw an adult (blonde, short, spiky hair) (thought he was in 30s). I thought he was a cop until he held up a sawed off shotgun. Then he and the senior tried to break into the room where a shot teacher went. When they couldn't get in they ran away shooting down the hall once or twice." (Source: p.2183)

"She said that between 11:45am and noon, she looked into the hallway and saw Dylan in the hallway, and another white male... Ms. Smull was asked to describe Dylan and she said he was wearing a black t-shirt with writing on it, (she didn't know what it said) and a black hat on backwards with writing on it and that he had long curly hair. She said that the person with Dylan appeared to be older, had short blond hair, like a buzz cut, and was wearing a white t-shirt, tight fit with no pocket, and was carrying a tan-colored sawed off shotgun." (Source: p.2185)

13. Jason Adams [pp.7420-7423]

Adams was a construction supervisor who reported that his subcontractors reported seeing a black BMW followed by a small tan car "break through the cul-de-sac" and then leave heading toward Columbine High. Five minutes later, they heard loud bangs coming from Columbine High School.

This timing is a bit suspicious because we know Klebold was barreling through the parking lot around 11:15 a.m. and if he was followed by a tan car, was that tan car driven by a third suspect?

14. Jake Apodaca [pp.652-657]

Apodaca saw the "white t-shirt bomber" in blue jeans and the trench coated suspect wearing a mask and beret.

From Apodaca's interview:

"He heard what sounded like a string of firecrackers going off, and turned towards the school and saw two white males crouching along the Northwest corner of the cafeteria."

"One person was dressed in a white short-sleeved tee shirt and blue jeans, with no weapon visible. The other person was dressed in all black, black trousers, black shirt, black trench coat, a black beret, and was wearing what appeared to be a black mask. He did not recognize either of these individuals since one had on a mask and the person in the white tee shirt because was [sic] crouched down with his back to him."

"Apodaca saw the person in the white tee shirt throw an object about the size of a soda can on top of the library. This object appeared metallic, since it looked silver in the sunlight. One or two seconds after landing on the roof, it exploded with a loud boom, a flash of fire, and puff of smoke. He then threw a second object on the roof which also exploded."

"After the second device exploded, the person dressed in the black trench coat walked West from the Northwest side of the cafeteria and shot at three students near the Southwest corner of the cafeteria, with what Apodaca believes was a shotgun." (Source: p.656, p.657)

15. Jason Brehm [pp.718-722]

Brehm saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description. However, he couldn't identify the suspect and told investigators the suspect had a round face. The actions taken by the suspect Brehm saw matched Dylan Klebold's known actions at that time (walking up and down the stairs shooting). However, he didn't identify the suspect as Klebold. Was this Brian Sargent?

From Brehm's interview:

"...he observed a party wearing a trench coat and black hat turned around backwards who was learning against a green post that was anchoring a tree... John stated that the person was a little shorter than himself, John is 5'11" or 6', and that he was wearing a black pair of boots that had black canvas between the sole and upper part and he noticed that one of the boots had the pant leg tucked into the boot which he thought strange."

"Det. Demmel showed Jason photographs of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at that time with Jason reporting that the party he observed wearing the trench coat had a very round face and was neither Harris or Klebold... Jason added that the party had a black nylon bag with straps at his feet."

"While playing Jason heard what he thought sounded like a string of firecrackers going off and saw smoke coming up from next to the guy in the trench coat. He stated that the person in the trench coat was the same party that he had observed when he walked out of the door. Jason stated that the guy in the trench coat was alone. The party wearing the trench coat began shooting randomly as he walked down the stairs, got to the bottom, then turned around and walked back up the stairs. He then started shooting at a student that Jason knew as Denny Rowe [Danny Rohrbough]." (Source: p.719, p.720)

16. Jennifer Tindall [pp.1224-1237]

Tindall saw 2 suspects she could not identify. She never saw their faces, but insisted the 2 suspects she saw were not Harris or Klebold.

Tindall was added to this list because she wasn't convinced the suspects she saw were Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. However, she never saw either of their faces. Tindall also picked out [redacted] from a photo lineup and said [redacted] had a similar build to the suspect she saw. This sounds like Perry, but she never saw any faces and couldn't identify the suspects she saw.

From Tindall's interview:

"She described him as a thin white male with brown hair, wearing a white short sleeved t-shirt, and tan pants. She then saw the second suspect run up the steps and stand next to the suspect in the white t-shirt. She described the him [sic] as a heavy set male, with black hair that was possibly pulled back into a tail, wearing a long black trench coat that was buttoned up."

"Tindall saw the male in the white t-shirt shooting a long gun toward the parking lot and commons area, but she never saw the other suspect shoot. She did not get a look at the suspects' faces, but insisted that neither suspect she saw was Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold."

"I showed Jennifer Tindall a photo lineup containing a photograph of [redacted]. Tindall picked out [redacted]'s photograph as possibly being the male in the black trench coat. I asked Tindall how she was able to pick out [redacted]'s photograph if she did not see the suspect's faces. She said that his build looked similar to the male in the black trench coat. Realizing that you cannot see a person's build in a photo lineup, I concluded that Tindall could not positively identify [redacted] as one of the shooters." (Source: p.1226)

17. Jay Gallantine [pp.3085-3091]

Gallentine had just come downstairs after reportedly seeing a single suspect matching Klebold's description upstairs. We know Klebold went upstairs first, before Harris. However, his interviews contain two different accounts - the account in his own handwriting says he saw a suspect with a bulletproof shield, while the other interview is a quick, 1-sentence summary and says he never saw a gunman. This is a major red flag.

It should be noted that you can see Gallantine on the CCTV cafeteria tape going up and down the stairs a couple of times, but it's unclear what he's running from. Was he running from explosions? Gunfire? Suspects? His actions on the CCTV tape match his handwritten account of encountering a suspect by the library and running back down the stairs.

In one interview, Gallentine told investigators he saw a gunman come around the corner at the top of the stairs from the library who was tall, dressed in black, with a bulletproof shield, wearing a long coat with something over. This suspect matches Klebold's description, except for the bulletproof shield.

However, Gallentine was evacuated from the school with his fellow custodian, Jon Curtis. The investigator who interviewed Curtis contacted Gallentine and Gallentine told that investigator he did not see any gunmen nor did he witness anyone being shot or injured. (Source: p.2787)

From Gallantine's interview (in his own handwriting):

"A gunman came around corner (at top of stairs from library direction); tall, dressed in black w/bulletproof shield; long coat w/something over; I went down stairs toward kitchen..."

"I ran back into kitchen; I got some students out side door; all this time hearing shots all around and above me..."

"I did not see any body shot. I came in contact w/shooter saw him in long trench coat with a white vest on & a grenade launcher/gun in library hall. (Source: p.3086, p.3087)

Gallantine's story according to IO Gary Muse:

"I also spoke with Gallantine, and he told me that he did not see the gunmen, nor did he witness anyone being shot or injured."

18. John Spahlinger [pp.1175-1178]

Spahlinger did not see any suspects and was not on campus when the shooting happened. He was a maintenance worker from Clement Park who sheltered escaping students. However, he told investigators that a majority of the students he sheltered told him there was a Trench Coat Mafia gang shooting at Columbine and there were 4 shooters.

Spahlinger denied seeing five people exit a black vehicle while working in the park.

From Spahlinger's interview:

"Spahlinger stated that he overheard the kids discussing how many gunmen they had seen or heard. Spahlinger stated that he heard stories from two gunmen to five gunmen, but really wasn't paying attention, that he was just checking their safety."

"Spahlinger stated he had no other information to report and that he did not know where someone got that he had witnessed five individuals exit a black vehicle while working in the park." (Source: p.1178)

19. John Vandemark [pp.2216-2223]

Vandemark saw 2 suspects when looking out the window of his science classroom. He identified Klebold, but could not identify Harris. He didn't think the second suspect was the same person in the photos of Harris shown by the media. It should be noted that the photos shared by the media were taken more than a year before the shooting, at the beginning of junior year, and Harris looks completely different. However, like others, Vandemark thought the second shooter was older, making the suspect he saw questionable.

From Vandemark's interview:

"Vandemark explained, that due to the height of the windows in the doors of the classroom, he was not able to observe a complete description of both gunmen. He described the first one as being tall and skinny with long dark hair, wearing a black shirt, black pants, and a black hat, which was on backwards. He also saw that the individual had a small black "two handled" tun strapped around his neck... he had seen the photographs shown by the media and could positively identify the individual as Dylan Klebold."

"He described "the other kid" as being about one foot shorter than Dylan, with dark hair that was spiked on top with blonde tips. That individual was wearing a white t-shirt and had on what appeared to be a dark green backpack. He was unable to see what type of pants were worn but stated he also had a gun strapped around his neck that appeared to be similar as the one carried by Dylan. Vandemark stated he is not one hundred percent sure the individual was Eric Harris. He could not recall seeing Harris around school prior to the incident and did not think the gunman resembled the photograph shown by the media. He then stated it was possibly [sic] the individual was Harris and he just looked older than the photos." (Source: p.2222)

20. Jonathan Cole [pp.748-753]

Cole saw 3 suspects; 2 in black trench coats with guns and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He was unable to identify any of the suspects, but the suspects in trench coats matched Harris & Klebold's description.

According to Cole, the suspect in the white t-shirt and blue jeans exited the building right behind the two in trench coats and yelled to them "Go! Go!" Next, the two trench coated suspects pulled out guns - one pulled a shotgun and the other pulled a semi-automatic and they began shooting at students.

In addition to a suspect wearing a white t-shirt and blue jeans, he noted that one of the two suspects in trench coats was wearing a white t-shirt underneath his coat.

From Cole's interview:

"...he noticed two males in trench coats. One was wearing a ski mask with one large hole in it. Both were tall and believed that they had just come through the same doors that he had exited from. He did not recall them wearing hats. However, it was his perception that one had a white shirt on under his trench coat and one was wearing a black shirt and black or dark pants or jeans. He recalled that one had brown "puffy" hair."

"The two males walked to the corner of the building and stood off of the sidewalk looking down the steps that lead [sic] to the cafeteria and senior parking lot. He recalled seeing a third male who was wearing a white tee-shirt that had either short sleeves or no sleeves, blue jeans, exit the building behind the two males in trench coats to [sic] GO!! GO!!"

"He then observed the two males with trench coats draw weapons. One pulled a shotgun and one pulled a large semi-automatic gun. They began shooting at student [sic] below... he recalled looking back and seeing the male in the white shirt throw what he believed were bombs on the roof area of the library."

"He was not close enough to observed [sic] facial details of the males wearing the trench coats... he was about 73' to 75' away from the gunmen as they walked from the West doors to the position where they drew guns and began firing." (Source: p.750, p.751)

21. Jordan Grimm [11k, pp.5700-5702; 10k, pp.22432-22433]

Grimm did not report seeing any suspects. He was in a conference room in the administration office when the shooting began. A couple minutes after hearing explosions he exited the building, got in a friend's car, and went to that friend's house.

However, there is a curious lead about Grimm in the 10k report provided by a parent.

"Received info from a parent, Debbie Dooley, that a student, Jordan (last name possible Grimm), observed Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold & 2 other students, [redacted] [reacted] at school together outside just before the incident began. Debbie Dooley was told this by Jordan's aunt, Leslie Black, who said Jordan is afraid to come forward & does not get along w/police."

22. Josh Brinkley [pp.2527-2530]

Brinkley saw no suspects. He heard shots coming from behind him in the cafeteria when he ran up the stairs, and at the top of the stairs in the science hallway he heard gunshots that sounded like they were closer to him.

Who was shooting at Brinkley? Harris, Klebold, or one of the trench coated suspects seen standing by Rebel Corner?

From Brinkley's interview:

"Josh stated that he could hear "more shots coming from behind him" while he was "going up the stairs." Josh stated that when he "got to the top of the stairs, the shots seemed closer." He stated that the shots at the top of the stairs were more of a "rapid fire." He stated that he could tell by the sound that there were "two different guns." Again, Josh thought that there "may be a shooter at the top of the stairs" because the shots "seemed louder" and "different" when he got to the top. Josh stated that he did not feel that "noises" he was hearing were explosions. He stated that he did not see any shooter at the top of the stairs or in the hallway while exiting." (Source: p.2528)

23. Joshua Lapp [pp.476-490]

Lapp was in the library and thought he heard shots being fired in other areas of the school while Harris and Klebold were both in the library.

From Lapp's interview:

"During the time the gunmen were in the library shooting, Lapp could hear what he thought was shooting in other parts of the school. Noises in the school tend to funnel to the library and Lapp could not tell where the other shooting was coming from. He also could feel at least five explosions from what he thought was below him. He thought the explosions were below him because they made the floor shake.

The explosions caused the library ceiling to shake and little particles of the ceiling to fall. Lapp and Bollerud were leaning against the inside of the table. With each explosion, the table would slide or move on the carpet. Some of the explosions felt closer than others." (Source: p.482)

24. Julie Thomas [ASCO p.808]

Thomas was a "passerby witness" who saw a brownish/golden truck parked on Polk Street at 7:55 a.m. with 5 teenagers, 3 wearing black trench coats around the car.

Unfortunately, we don't have the Arapahoe County 800-page report to verify this or quote directly from the report.