Rooftop Gunman

Witnesses who saw a shooter on the roof

East side of the school

Candice Cushman [pp.2793-2797]

“I was walking back from the lunch line + everyone yelled get down. I hesitated + Mr. Sanders said ‘Candice get down.’ Everyone started to get out + I got stuck in the back. One guy got shot + I ran through the auditorium + caught up with the people I had been with. When we got outside I saw someone on the roof with what I thought was a black trenchcoat. He was aiming a gun, so Erica Nick + I ran toward the smoker’s pit.” (11k, p.2794)

Jason Cornelius [pp.6279-6282]

“Jason stated that they returned to school about 11:15AM and found a large group of students gathered in Leawood Park across the street from the school, and police cars arriving at the school. Jason said that he parked his car on West Fair Avenue, and they began talking to students in the park and learned that there had been a shooting in the school. Jason stated that while he was standing in the park he heard shots and thought someone was shooting at the people in the park. Jason said it sounded like the shots were coming from the area of math rooms on the main level. Jason continued to say that he thought he observed a person on the school roof but did not know if this was a shooter. Jason did not see who was doing the shooting. Jason stated that after they heard the shots he and his friends got into this car and left the area, going to his house.” (11k, p.6281)

Jeff Barrett [pp.2431-2435]

“He and the other students ran from the auditorium to the hallway in the lower level and out the southeast door. They ran up the hill and across Pierce to Leawood Park. They could hear gunfire and explosions. After about fifteen minutes, someone yelled that someone was on the roof shooting. Jeff stated he then ran through the neighborhood. Jeff stated he never saw the shooter.” (11k, p.2433)

Jessica Lucero [pp.1506-1508]

“Jessica stated she ran east down the math/science hallway and exited the school and went to Leawood Park. Jessica was asked if she saw any gunmen while in Columbine High School or if she saw any gunmen after she had exited. She stated as she was running out the east doors of the high school that she believes she saw an individual dressed in black holding a gun up on the roof of the school. I asked if she could provide a description of the individual. She stated she couldn’t. I asked if she could provide a description of the gun this person was carrying. She said it wasn’t a pistol, it appeared to be some long gun. Jessica was asked if she was sure about this information. She told me that she believes she saw someone, but she couldn’t provide any additional information about the person.” (11k, p.1508)

Lindsay Conwell [pp.2760-2767]

“Lindsay went straight east down the hallway by the math area. It leads out to Pierce Street. … She ran out the doors. So many people were trying to get out the doors. She hit a set of steps and tripped. When she looked back, there was someone on the roof. It was just a glance. She couldn’t tell what the person was wearing or holding, or what the person looked like. She kept running after that.” (11k, pp.2762-63)

Shelby Myers [pp.3861-3865]

“We then ran to the main entrance and out. As we ran towards the front entrance we could hear gunshots behind us and they sounded very close. We got in a car and were driven to Clement Park and then home. We heard explosions and shooting outside. Some of the noises sounded like they were coming from the roof.” (11k, p.3862)

Tony Martinez [pp.7532-7539]

“Tony said that he then quickly retreated to a position behind the ‘Leawood Park’ sign which is located on the grass, southeast of the intersection. … Tony said that while he was standing behind the sign and communicating with the Denver officer, he remembered seeing ‘a really strange, goofy guy’ crawling on the grass nearby, in the park. Tony said that this individual, whom he described as a white adult male, said, ‘There’s a sniper on the roof,’ after which he began crawling around on his stomach ‘like he was in a war movie.’ … Tony said that he remembered hearing a single gunshot at about that time, which sounded as though it had originated from outside the school. Tony said that he looked toward the school, but never saw anyone on the roof at any time. Tony said that this individual then ‘crawled away into the park’ and that he didn’t see him again after that.” (11k, pp.7535-36)

"We had to wait there for another cop car to come get us, and get us some medical attention. While waiting we saw one of the shooters on the roof of the school sort of patrolling the area from up top."

Interview with Donna Taylor, available here:

www.erichufschmid.net/Col...aylor.html

--Mark told her(Donna) he saw another man on the roof with a gun while laying on the ground. "There was videotape of that but they've thrown that in the trash."

[Comment: I have talked to another researcher who was able to talk to Mark personally. He mentioned that he was shot initially by someone outside the school, but then was shot repeatedly by the rooftop gunman. He then backed off this statement, as though he realized he had let this info slip out.]

"As Mark lay bleeding, he could hear shots that sounded as though they were coming from the roof. 'At least one [shooter] on the roof,' Mark told CRTF, noting that although he did not see anyone on the roof, the sounds of gunfire were distinctly coming from the direction above the cafeteria [the library?]" (Mark Taylor's Story, 11-6-00).

West side of the school

Nicole Nowlen [pp.00100-113]

"Nicole Nowlen stated during that same time frame (about 11:45am), she believed she observed someone on the roof of the school, but she could not provide a description of that individual. Nicole Nowlen stated her observation was later confirmed when she heard others near where she was located, making similar comments." (11k, p.111)

"We slowly moved, and I just followed them thinking they knew where a back door was. The greatest thing I saw in the world was that propped open back door, and the sunshine streaming in. We went up to the door, and could see a cop car in the grass, and they started yelling at us to run to them. Behind the car were other kids from the library. Some were unhurt and some were close to dying. We had to wait there for another cop car to come get us, and get us some medical attention. While waiting we saw one of the shooters on the roof of the school sort of patrolling the area from up top." (www.nicolenowlen.com/chloeandceline.htm; "My Story")

Michelle Fox [pp.5193-5201]

“Michelle said that upon exiting these doors, she saw ‘a ton of people’ in and around the area near the Northeast corner of the gymnasium’s exterior. Michelle said that she then began walking in a Northwest direction, on the gymnasium’s North side. Michelle said that after she walked about thirty yards in said direction, she looked back toward the gymnasium and noticed an individual ‘wearing white’ standing on the roof of the gymnasium, along its North side, approximately fifteen yards from its West side.”

“Michelle said that this person on the roof was holding something that was ‘long,’ and appeared to be pointing it Northward.” (11k, pp.5197-98)

Eric Sunde's(4573) friend "Rusty"(NFI) sees two guys on the roof as he's driving out of the parking lot, then the back window of his car is shot out.

After fleeing gunshots in the cafeteria, Phillip Vanderau(see map on page5991) runs down the gym hallway upstairs to the northwest exit doors. He sees dirt come up by his feet, which he thinks is from gunshots. By this time H&K were supposed to be inside the school, so these shots have to originate from a third shooter lingering on the west edge of the school or.... from someone on the roof.

see18701 statement of Karen Drinnon

13160 (Tips A-L)

(W)Drinnon

"At one point, she thought around 11:45am -12:30pm, while they were watching through the remote viewer of the video camera, using the telephoto lens, they observed two individuals on the south edge roof of the school.

...she.. thought one of the individuals was wearing a white t-shirt and the other possibly a white shirt with a red stripe. ...

I(IO) obtained a copy of the above mentioned video tape."

--Joey Marcotte: At about 1:45, she saw a male in a black jacket on the roof (p. 10013).

Clark himself said he was wearing "a red ballcap with black and yellow on it" (p. 746).

--Brian Paugh, nearby resident: "The photo this man took of the person on the roof of the school appears to be a man with a mask on. Paugh said this man was in sort of a 'stance,' just sitting there for a while" (Meeting the Wisher Family, 2001).

Rooftop shooter discussed on police radio

Alicia Deejniczak's dad(5067) overhears on a police radio that " 'There was a shooter on the roof and they were throwing bombs.' Finally, a supervisor in a white car told the officer to turn down the radio."

Controversies

Trista Fogerty(1420) says a sophomore named "Scott"(NFI) said he saw Eric Harris go through the custodian's roof access and then go out onto the roof. Officially, though, the only person up on the roof that day(before a 1:40pm entry to the roof by Lakewood PD) was HVAC service person Chris Clarke(745). He tells us that he was up there to fix a leak above the girl's locker room on the northwest edge of the building, although teacher Barbara Ann Hirokawa(5460) says she was told by one of the 'county maintenance guys' that he was there to repair the dark room fan located above her photography class on the eastern side of the school.

In his initial interview on 4-20 he told the IOs he was INSIDE the school when the shooting broke out, and that he ran up the custodian's roof access to escape. In a later interview, he says he was already on top of the roof when the first shots were heard, and that he used the roof hatch in the HALLWAY-just north of the library. At any rate he doesn't see any shooters when he finally peers over the edge, nor does he mention running to the east side of the school, which is where people in the math/science classes hear running and thumping sounds above them(see Nichols 3907. Steele 2201, Morris 1569, and Mar 2029).

Clarke says he stayed put until "a uniformed police officer pulled a van alongside the school and helped him off the roof"(by the north side of the school). Odd that he doesn't recognize his own service van, which DPO Wayne DePew commandeered, with the keys conveniently in the ignition, to rescue him. Odd too that no other police officer/first responder saw this rooftop rescue taking place, including the ones that DePew(7990) says were with him at this time.

DPO Gutierrez(8010) is on the west side of Columbine when he sees "one student (who) jumped from the roof of the school building and apparently broke his hip. He tried to run but he couldn't and began crawling." Gutierrrez pulls him into the front seat of this patrol car and takes him and other students to triage. We never get to his name, but if the story is true than we very possibly have a shooter who sustained an injury. Any guesses?

14013

MSNBC tv witness

This young lady was interviewed and she told how it was the beginning of her lunch hour and that she needed to go out to her car to get her make-up. She asked another female student to walk with her. As they were walking, she indicated seeing a heavy set student with dark hair or a mustache(something like that) who was up on the roof of the school, wearing a trench coat - and with him was another student, wearing a T-shirt.

Additional information

Philip Tkacz

May 1st, 2001

Last year, CRTF received information from a man named Phillip Tkacz, who, at the time, was a fireman for the Versailles Fire Department in Kentucky. In "mid July" of 1999 he attended a class in Lexington on firefighter safety in police situations. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) participated in the class. The agent who gave the class, William Donovan, is based in Washington D.C., "semi-retired" and is only involved in "large cases". He was present at Columbine High School three days after the shootings.

Donovan presented to the class a number of forensic pictures from Columbine. One picture showed between six to ten shell casings on the roof of the school. Tkacz says the casings were large, and likely .223 caliber. They were not 9mm or shotgun shell casings, as used by Harris and Klebold. The BATF instructor would not comment on who fired from the roof. Tkacz says that during the shooting, on television coverage, he remembers hearing reports of someone firing from the roof. Those reports quickly vanished, but surfaced again in the recently released 11,000 pages of evidence. There is no plausible reason why a SWAT team or any other figure in authority would have fired from the roof that day. The only possibility is that another shooter -- not Harris or Klebold -- fired those shots.

Another picture presented to the class showed the body of Eric Harris as he lay in the library. His skull was fractured from a gunshot wound. Harris's pants were missing, and Tkacz says that the BATF instructor, "...wouldn't tell us why he wasn't wearing pants. I found that very unusual." Other pictures were shown of exploded pipe bombs and damage throughout the school. The instructor said that the night before the shooting Harris and Klebold used the Harris home garage to break glass which was placed in the pipe bombs. Someone in the class asked whether or not Wayne Harris was involved in some way, and the instructor said he felt he was not involved. He also said that backpacks were found with explosives in them, but he would not elaborate as to whom they belonged to. The instructor said that the three students arrested the day of the shooting outside of the school were not directly involved with the shooting, though they were close friends of Harris.

Some of the class participants asked Donovan if there were more than two people involved in the shooting and he replied to the class that it was "feasible" that more were involved. Tkacz later approached the instructor and asked him if he could have copies of the pictures, Donovan refused his request. He also asked about the possibility of more than two gunmen. Tkacz says that the instructor responded by saying that "off the record" he knew for a fact that there were more people involved.

Tkacz recounts the incident, "From what we saw in the pictures we all agreed that there had to be more than two [gunmen]. I asked the instructor if he believed only two kids did this [and] he finally answered me and said off the record he knows that there were more involved."

CRTF has talked with Mr. Phillip Tkacz over the phone and he has reaffirmed his story first related to us through an email. Furthermore, one of Mr. Tkacz's associates who was present during the class has emailed us and confirmed Tkacz's story. He told us, "I don't remember a whole lot to be honest...The guy showed us slides from Columbine. Most of them from [were] where bombs had gone off...spent shell casings on the roof...Phil asked him if he thought that only two of them did this. I don't recall the exact answer but he said that it was very possible...[Phil] told us that he (the instructor) finally said that he knew for a fact that there were more involved."

The following is a copy of one of Mr. Tkacz's emails:

In mid-July of this year I attended a class for Fire Departments in my area addressing firefighter safety at police situations. The last speaker was a man who works for the ATF. He is an explosives expert and was telling us about booby traps and the sort. He brought along several slides from the shooting at Columbine. He said he was there by the third day to help with identifying some of the devices. Most of the pictures were of bombs that had already exploded and a few that had not. The one thing that I remember was a picture on the roof. It was of, what he said, where one of the pipe bombs had gone off. In the picture you could clearly see at least 6 to 10 shell casings as well. Someone did ask about that but he never really gave an answer. The casings looked to big to be from a 9 mm like the ones that were used. Also was a picture of Eric Harris's body. Someone asked where his pants were, again no straight answer.

At the end of the class we asked him if he thought there were more than 2 were involved. In front of the whole class he said "it is quite feasible". I talked to him alone before we all left and asked him again. He said "off the record I know that there were more directly involved". He didn't specifically say if he meant a 3rd gunman or if they had help making the bombs that numbered over 60. He also did state that he doubted that Eric's father helped them with the incident. I found him to be very sincere. At the time I didn't realize how important his statements really were.

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In a bizarre twist of events, Phillp Tkacz was arrested April 25, 2000 apparently in his home at 337 Amsden Avenue in Versailles for allegedly making bomb threats over the internet.

The threats allegedly stemmed from Tkacz's internet messenger screen name, "Schoolshooter_2000". Using this screen name, he posed as a school student from Colorado and claimed he would enact another shooting on April 20. Tkacz said he would target a school in Arvada, Colorado. He apparently did not make any specific threats. Investigators found an assault rifle, handgun, and instructional manual on how to make bombs in his home. He was not in possession of illegal weapons or bomb-making materials. It does not appear he was preparing to enact a shooting.

After his arrest, a number of articles were released by The Kentucky Post and Lexington Hearld Leader. They confirmed Tkacz was in fact a volunteer member of the Versailles Fire Department, though he quit late last year. He is 23 years old and lives alone in Versailles. No further information about his background was reported by the newspapers.

CRTF corresponded with Tkacz for months prior to his arrest and found him to be helpful and stable. He even helped us obtain vital CNN video footage of Columbine. He also made attempts to contact the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office and ask for an explanation for the pictures he had seen at the class. His story never changed and we felt he was telling the truth about the class he attended.

On May 5, Tkacz was indicted by a Kentucky grand jury. He faced charges of up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. A CRTF source was in contact with Tkacz's mother, Carol, who lives in Chicago. She expressed dismay over the incident. She said Tkacz was en route to Atlanta, and from there would depart for North Carolina for "psychological testing". (sources 1, 2, 3)

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On June 13, CRTF spoke with Carol Tkacz, Phillip Tkacz's mother, over the phone. She reported that Mr. Tkacz is currently in a North Carolina federal prison where he will undergo psychological testing sometime within the next month. It is hoped that after the testing is finished Mr. Tkacz will be released from prison while he awaits trial.

The charges against Tkacz stem from an internet user who informed the FBI of a threat made by a chat room participant named "Schoolshooter_2000". The vague threat implied a shooting or bombing would take place at an Arvada, Colorado high school. The FBI traced the identity of the chat room participant to Mr. Tkacz through AT & T. Mr. Tkacz's internet provider is AT & T Worldnet. Carol said Phillip denies the charges. She said he was in good spirits from what she could surmise from the few phone conversations they had. She tends to believe him and sees no reason why he would make such threats.

Carol says so far their lawyer remains inactive, as the evidence relating to the case -- including Mr. Tkacz's computer hard drive -- is in the possession of the authorities. The authorities failed to recover any evidence from Mr. Tkacz's home indicating he was planning on fulfilling the alleged threat. It also does not appear a threat was ever made to an Arvada high school during the latter part of April.

It remains unclear whether or not Tkacz had a chat room screen name of "Schoolshooter_2000". It is wholly possible a disgruntled chat room user decided to "frame" Tkacz and claim he made a threat when he did not. It is also possible the charges against Tkacz are completely accurate. The nature of the internet and especially chat rooms found on the internet is that is can be difficult to determine not only the identity of a chat room participant but also the intent of what they are communicating. Most often, a chat room is a place where people go to vent their feelings and make off-the-cuff comments not normally accepted in normal social situations. Even if the charges against Mr. Tkacz are true, we certainly do not feel they warrant a prison term.

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The latest information on Mr. Tkacz's condition was received through a phone conversation with Carol Tkacz on April 26, 2001. She said Phillip has been imprisoned in the Federal Medical Center in Lexington since January of this year. He will be released October 3, 2001. Phillip passed his psychological tests with flying colors and was found to be of completely stable mental condition and a non-threat. Despite this, he was placed in a medium-to-maximum security prison because authorities felt he was too great a "threat" for a lower-security prison. Carol said during his sentencing the prosecution presented evidence against Phillip in the form of "pages and pages" of confusing internet chat room dialogue allegedly made by "Schoolshooter_2000".

Phillip plead guilty to the charges in hope of gaining a lighter sentence. Carol said the judge at Phillip's hearing seemed to have a bias against Phillip. Carol says she believes her son is innocent. She finds the charges against him to be "not even that big a deal" and is dismayed at the fervor in which the government went after her son. Authorities found nothing in Phillip's home to implicate him in a bomb plot, let alone anything illegal. Carol gave us Phillip's address at the prison, and he had requested she contact us. She said he was interested in getting a copy of the JCSO "final report".

We believe Mr. Tkacz is unfairly imprisoned and likely innocent of his alleged crimes. We also trust the veracity of the information Mr. Tkacz revealed to us in late 1999 concerning the Columbine High School shooting. We believe the important information he possess concerning the shooting may have some connection as to why he was arrested and imprisoned for these laughable charges.